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Landvættir in America

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Re: Landvættir in America

Postprzez Leśna » czwartek, 16 sierpnia 2012, 20:40

]:)
Ostatnio edytowano czwartek, 16 sierpnia 2012, 20:51 przez Leśna, łącznie edytowano 1 raz
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Re: Landvættir in America

Postprzez Leśna » czwartek, 16 sierpnia 2012, 20:47

bil napisal:
However, when one views heathenry as an ethnic folkway, in other words, a way to conduct one's life, any community becomes 'heathen' even if I am the only heathen here. Heathenry, as a way to conduct one's life, plays out on the stage of the community --- it exists whenever I interact with anyone, when I drive my car, when I feed the animals, or when I give a handout to a bum.


That's exactly my understanding of being Asatru.


bil napisal:
The kindred for us is made up of a group of like-minded folks who have the same or similar goals, wishes and concerns regarding our families and community. Because we are like minded, our relationships to the regin are also similar. However, when I go to New England, Florida, or California, we are not like-minded because their goals, wishes and concerns regarding [/]their[/i] families and community are very different from ours -- we do not see the regin in their manner. When we go to places like that, we (from NMex) see the regin as we know them.


I agree. But seeing someone in a different manner doesn't mean that we are dealing with a different person.

bil napisal:
The point of the meeting is to honor the regin whether we are at home or guests in a foreign land. When I leave an offering in Germany to the land wights of Germany or Denmark or Switzerland, I do so as a NMex heathen (leaving tobacco mostly) which is my ethnic folkway. The purpose of the blot or offering does not change --- the only thing that is different is how each community perceives the regin.


I see what you mean. So our points of view are not so different ;)
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Re: Landvættir in America

Postprzez bil » piątek, 17 sierpnia 2012, 18:03

Leśna hot gschriwwe:
I agree. But seeing someone in a different manner doesn't mean that we are dealing with a different person.


I think that we're probably in agreement as well, but let me make another analogy that might clear up how important this seemingly unimportant concept is.

My mom was for me and and my older sister an evil troll woman. She beat me mercilessly almost on a daily basis. Between my dad and my older sister, I escaped many needless beatings because they tended to take me with them rather than leave me at home with her. My older sister and I didn't like as a woman until her death 2 yrs. back.

My little sister was born 6 yrs. after me. My mom declared at her birth "This one is mine!" My little sister had a very different upbringing than me or my older sister to the point that my mom even looked a different person physically when around my little sister. Theirs was a loving mother/ daughter relationship; ours was one of fear and distrust.

Because of the concept of relationship, my mom was a different person to 2 different groups. Because I belong to 2 different kindreds in 2 very different places, and because the groups are so different in terms of needs, goals, etc., we have very different types of relationships, we wind up with very different gods. Whether the gods are truly different beings cannot be proved, but, as with my mother and her relationships with her kids, it certainly appears to be the case and for all practical purposes, we are required to 'act' as though this is the case. As a result, blots are very different in both kindreds with the exception that the general purpose of honoring the regin remains the same.

Hope that clears up things a bit,
Lewwe woohl un faahr mit de Gedder,
Bil
lewwe woohl un fahr mit de Gedder,
bil
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Re: Landvættir in America

Postprzez Leśna » piątek, 17 sierpnia 2012, 20:16

Yes, that clears up things completely, especially when It comes to family example; I had a very similar situation and as i think of it now - the way you see someone is connected to how you perceive the world that this person is part of. The world - so place that you're in, the past and the present, deeds, thoughts, dreams, brothers, sisters, friends... all that creates your reality. For you - @]:D
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Re: Landvættir in America

Postprzez bil » niedziela, 19 sierpnia 2012, 14:17

The concept of an ethnic folkway instead of a religion was strange to us at first. I belong to 2 kindreds: 1) Mountain Haven of Edgewood, NM, and Hamburger Stammtisch. While I am completely comfortable in Hamburg, I must approach the regin as a New Mexican. While it is possible for me to understand the concerns of my German Stammtischgebrüder, I am a New Mexican, my home and my people are of NE New Mexico. Our concerns revolve formost around water (really, the lack of water), the health and welfare of our families, the produce of ranch and farm -- the cows and chilis -- and the peace of our communities. As a consequence, even among our Stammtisch, I must honor Dunner, Wode, un Frick. At times, it feels a bit schizophrenic, but on the other hand, it somehow feels normal. I realize that Dunner and Þór/ Donar are related at a fundamental level but the relationships differ so much so that Donar feels to me to be a foreign god whereas Dunner is he who tends to our precious weather here in New Mexico.

I just thought I add this in because I'd stated earlier that I am one who sees gods as being different from land to land. I'll probably never be able to comprehend completely the north German relationship between German family/ community, land, leaders/ regin without actually living there for 25 yrs. or so. I understand that they are heathen, and, basically, why they are heathen, and also that the structure of their heathen praxis is similar to ours, but how they actually view the gods with their relationship to land, community, and family is something only they can understand. Additionally, I would not conduct a blót on German soil because, in a sense, I don't know their gods. I don't comprehend those north German relationships which are the reason and rationale for the honoring, the making of requests, and the conducting of blóts. The only exception would be an international blót where several goðar would be making a common blót, each for their own respective communities.

just a couple of thoughts,
lewwe woohl un faahr mit de Gedder,
bil
lewwe woohl un fahr mit de Gedder,
bil
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Re: Landvættir in America

Postprzez Szerszen » niedziela, 19 sierpnia 2012, 14:38

Hello bil,

I am not sure if the gods are different on different lands, or just the problem is - the natural conditions are different, so you just need different thing from the same gods.
As example - far away on the north, the sun is bless so most often the sunny, hot days are "needed" - I quess, that in Mexico, you rather pray for rain and clouds.

So, the gods from our pantheon I suppose are the same - independent of land on which you are, but... landvaettir in my opinion can be totally different. They are "the salt" of the soil, and part of it.
Skalat maðr rúnar rista, nema ráða vel kunni
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Re: Landvættir in America

Postprzez bil » poniedziałek, 20 sierpnia 2012, 01:16

Szerszen napisał(a):Hello bil,

I am not sure if the gods are different on different lands, or just the problem is - the natural conditions are different, so you just need different thing from the same gods.
As example - far away on the north, the sun is bless so most often the sunny, hot days are "needed" - I quess, that in Mexico, you rather pray for rain and clouds.


We actually live in the SW of the USA but it's a common error. :D No offense taken. But, praying for rain is something we do almost on a daily basis. Unlike northern Europe, true sunshine here is basically 'the enemy.'

Szerszen napisał(a):So, the gods from our pantheon I suppose are the same - independent of land on which you are, but... landvaettir in my opinion can be totally different. They are "the salt" of the soil, and part of it.


That's my point, though. I'm not so sure the gods are the same. Our needs are so different, and our results from blótar are so different that it doesn't appear to me that the gods are the same. The practice is the same, to be sure; however, our relationships to the gods and to the cycle of the year are so completely different that one could say that we worship different gods. For example, right now is one of our holiest tides of the year -- the chili and corn harvest: the smells, the people, the roasting, the eating of roasted chilis and corn in tortillas, the eating of caldito, the socialization around putting chilis into storage, green chili enchiladas, the constant chatter about chilis, corn and calabacitas at home, in restaurants, on the street, in the checkout lines --- and it all depends on our precious weather. In recorded and unrecorded history, these staples have been provided to us even in the slimmest of years -- all because of the relationships between families/ communities, land and rulers/ regin.

The next question should be then: were our Germanic gods already here farming or are they new comers? My point remains: I don't know -- I don't have a direct line to any god and I'm very suspicious of anyone who says that he does have such a line. I know that as heathens we all report that our lives have gone rather well with our heathen praxis and all report that they will continue with the worship of our ancestral gods and ancestors. For us here, Dunner, Wodan, and Frick play large roles in our year.

New Mexico is a land of 21 official languages, 20 sovereign nations (native American plus the USA) and a very complex set of spiritual traditions. We all share the same space, the same needs, the same goals, and we Germanic heathens are proud to show up in the mix. The landvættir -- land wights -- are native to our soil (by different names, of course, and our gods, our Germanic gods, also seem to be native to our soil. Whether that is simply an artifact of our living here, whether the gods are actually different gods as the result of the different needs of the community or because perhaps they are simply gods filling specific cultural roles, I cannot say, I'm not that 'special.' And, if I went around saying that I was that 'special,' I'd be living in a very special small padded room wearing a very special small white jacket.

In any case, the regin seem different here although I recognize them in other places of the world as well. I understand that there are relationships between Dunner, Donar, Þór and even Perkunas, but I am unable to pretend to know what those relationships are. I'm not able to tolerate pretense in lieu of fact. So, for me, I accept that Germanic heathenry is Germanic heathenry the world over, but I cannot say that we have anything like 'universal gods.'

Perhaps we don't have 'Gods' with names at all; perhaps what exist are simply 'god-roles' that are filled as necessary. Perhaps names like Þór, Wodan, and Frigg are really more like titles bestowed upon those filling the role and assuming the responsibility for various communities. For 2000 yrs. people have been brow-beaten with the idea that there is but one 'true' Jesus, Jehovah or St. Matthew, that people have forgotten that in tribal cultures religious figures change from generation depending on needs, environments, and relationships with a deity. Perhaps we have been trying to apply the modern term 'God' in the sense of 'Jehovah, the unchanging' to a title much like duke, baron, king, or baker. At any rate, when I pray to Dunner as a New Mexican, I don't have to feel any sense of guilt that he might not actually be the same as Þór; I just kind of see it as 'the role is filled and it works when I do this.' Anything beyond that, in my thinking, is 'pretending to know a whole lot more than I really do.'

In this sense then, gods may not actually be any different than land wights in that they may actually be tied to the land and the roles that they play. Of course, this idea doesn't change heathenry at all because 'heathenry' is how we interact with gods, land, community and family. I can still attend a blót and still be part of the international heathen community yet continue to do my part as a heathen from New Mexico. I don't even have to adopt new age ideas, wiccan concepts or leftover Christian thinking to do so. All I need is to accept the fact that I don't have a religion and I do adhere to the ethnic folkway of my ancestors. 8-)

Just some thoughts,
lewwe woohl un faahr mit de Gedder,
bil
lewwe woohl un fahr mit de Gedder,
bil
bil
 
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Dołączył(a): niedziela, 12 sierpnia 2012, 15:54
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Re: Landvættir in America

Postprzez Leśna » poniedziałek, 20 sierpnia 2012, 08:20

Although, after our exchange of ideas concerning reign and our ways of perceiving them I understand your point of view, my thinking of Them is still somehow “universal”, with large quotation mark.
But – all the heathens I know personally are from here. All of them share with me geographic area, political and economical situation, age, language and even social status. Though we come to the meeting from all across the country, as I think of it – we are much the same. Just like we're from one tribe. So it's no surprise that we see reign similarly. Would it be the same in contact with groups of people from another continents? I would hesitate before giving the answer.
So I don't tie myself to one way of thinking, because with growing experience some things may change.
I think that neither Gods get angry wit people when they see them a bit differently, nor we as heathens lose anything in a field of interaction with each other, honoring reign and being part of Wyrd.
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Re: Landvættir in America

Postprzez Vrede » wtorek, 21 sierpnia 2012, 07:08

It was a very interesting discussion and some interesting ideas to consider...
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Re: Landvættir in America

Postprzez Szerszen » wtorek, 21 sierpnia 2012, 07:35

Bil, I have another question.

You wrote:
Perhaps we don't have 'Gods' with names at all; perhaps what exist are simply 'god-roles' that are filled as necessary. Perhaps names like Þór, Wodan, and Frigg are really more like titles bestowed upon those filling the role and assuming the responsibility for various communities.


So what is the difference for you is between ask about help for Thor, Frigg... or just Jesus / St. Mary / any of the xtian saints or any name of the native indian gods/wights?
I am asking, because for me heathenry was always paganism but with believs in northern gods, not just paganism with names of the gods in proper roles - in that way wiccans "works with gods", where the name of the god is a "key to concrete power" not the name of the concrete being.
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